mitt romney, kick him when he's down. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in philadelphia. let me start tonight with this. it used to be that democrats were nasty to their losers. jimmy carter, walter mondale, mike dukakis, al gore, they all had to skip town to avoid the abuse they faced after losing. democrats try to erase them from history. they shoot their wounded. but watch what the republicans are doing this very minute. they're taking romney apart like vultures on a wounded antelope. want to make your bones as a prospect for 2016? just take a piece out of the guy who went down in 2012. get a piece of romney and wave it in the air until everybody sees it.

gingrich, bobby jindal, they're all doing it. howa howard, i have to tell you, this is something like i have never seen before. let's start with these clips from the sunday talk show circuit. republicans ran with mitt romney remarks that the president ran because of giving gifts to minorities and young voters. >> i just think it's nuts. i mean, first of all, it's insulting. this would be like walmart having a bad week and going the customers have really been unruly. i mean, the job of a political leader in part is to understand the people. if we can't offer a better future that is believable to more people, we're not going to win. >> the unfortunate part, and we were just talking about this, i don't know if he understood that he was saying something that was insulting. the language, the attitude, the body language, that's what latinos watch. >> we're in a big hole, we're no the getting out of it by

comments like that. when you're in a hole stop digging. he keeps digging. >> it's been well-said you have a political problem when the voters don't like you but you have a real problem when the voters think you don't like them. mitt romney was picking up the theme he improvidently put before the country and inadvertently with his 47% video during the xhan. quit dispiesing the american people. >> i always wondered how people became incent experts. didn't the republicans notice the phrase 1% that they were defending? didn't they notice the phrase 47% that was being dismissed? all that time being thrown at them and they're all saying romney is going to win this baby. george will said he was going to win, peggy noonan, karl rove. everyone said he's on a winning campaign strategy. everything is working and now they're all instant, yorn what. st. paul and the road to damascus and that road is really crowded, these converts. your thoughts. >> first of all, there's a

personal level to this. the fact is that john of the other republicans ever liked mitt romney and he didn't do anything during the campaign to endear himself to them. don't forget, he attacked them all in the primaries. this is kind of the revenge of the clowns here. he knocked them off one at a time. he sort of knocked them over in iowa and elsewhere around the campaign trail. number two, his campaign was based on a negative. it was based on the idea that he would have to win because president obama was so bad. there was no philosophy to it. mitt romney's campaign was kind of the end of the line of the conservative era that began coherently with ronald reagan in 1980. mitt romney was the ultimate remainder man. that's why they have an easier time of dumping on him right now. >> so the clown car has backed up to run over mitt romney. that's the image for the night tonight. >> yes, it is. >> like that woman who didn't like her husband, remember she drove over her husband in the parking lot and drove over him

again. i don't want to get involved in that legal case but i do remember the pictures. let's go to john heilemann here. is this the clown car as howard beautifully put it backing up over the guy that outcorkoutdorm and won the election? >> some of these people are not certifiable clowns who are saying these things about romney though i don't disagree with howard's characterization in general. i do think -- >> gingrich -- >> i think it's fair to say that part of romney's problem was that he was really always an incredibly bad fit with the republican party on almost every level. he was not most of the things the republican party is today nor really is he much of what the traditional republican party has been. he was not a comfortable populist. he was also not a comfortable establishment aryan. he was never part washington, d.c., establishment. the only people glommed onto him ever was he was the most electable of a very, very weak field. >> those are the clowns i was

referring to. >> of course. if the only reason that the republican party ever had any enthusiasm for him, and remember in mid-september after the 47% video, a lot of the republican party was ready to abandon him. it was only after the denver debate when it looked like he had new life, they rallied around him. if the only people people are rallying to you is because they think you're electable, if you lose, what's left? >> howard, i want to be very cynical. aren't a lot of the people in politics engaged because they want something out of it? it sounds so obvious. we used to call them meal tickets. they showed up because this guy is going to take care of them the rest of their life. election night headquarters are packed with people looking for something from the candidate. i know you're shaking your head there, john. it seemed like you saw this with dukakis. he was the perfect candidate for the democrats back in '88 until they lost. it just isn't one party. but the republicans were always much better at covering their

wounded. they'd run -- nixon ran again and again and again. they brought back bob dole 20 years later. they always run the familiar times. this time it looks like they're really mad about the club, the club itself produced this guy and they don't like him. >> but this was the last and least of the club, chris. as john heilman was explaining. there was no philosophy whatsoever behind all of this. it was pure opportunism. it was pure i'm in the right place because we have a president at a time of high unemployment so i'm going to win so be with me for no other reason than i'm going to win. there was absolutely nothing else to it. it was that naked. and so when he loses, that's going to make it all the more -- that's going to make it all the more vehement. i would also say that the old sort of royalist republican party where people kind of wait their turn and they train within the party, whether out of ideology or moving up the chain, really doesn't exist very much anymore, and mitt romney in his own way was in defiance of that. he used his own fund-raising and

his own clout with what was left of the establishment to take the nomination when there was nobody else available. >> well said. john, does that mean to you that if you agree with that, and i sort of do because i think the tea party has really shaken up the republican party, that the days of another bush getting the nomination are probably over. it's not going to be a party dieing to find the latest guy whose turn it is. >> i don't know. i think jeb bush if he runs in 2016 will be right at the front of the pack among potential runners but i think that there's another element and i think howard will agree with this, which is that, and i think it was ben smith who wrote a piece that made this point. it's almost like romney has become a bad bank. remember when the banks were failing they were going to create a bad bank to put the toxic assets. you have a party that wants to turn away and knows it needs to reinvent itself. so the easiest thing in the world, the easiest way to make that pivot is to the throw all the toxicity around the brand and heap it on mitt romney who they never liked anyway. throw all the bad assets and all the criticism on top of him and

used him to kind of push off against towards some other kind of future. i think that's another dynamic that's driving this. >> i agree with that. he's sort of like the lehman brothers of politics, but that's disingenuous because the republicans have a lot more deep thinking to do than just shoving it all onto mitt romney. >> how about the numbers? >> how about the numbers? you can't make a party a success if it salutes the top 1% and trashes the bottom half, the 47%. these numbers are on the table. let's take a look. i disagree with him politically. he's a bit far right for me but he's always great on movies and he's good at recognizing that among mitt romney's failings was his inability to connect with voters who are not solely focused on being big time capitalists. here he is on "morning joe." >> the problem for mitt romney is they had a theory of the race which is they needed to run against obama -- he was just going to be the nonobama and

that the unifying principle was going to be obama was bad for business and he was a businessman and he would be good for business. the problem with such a thing is that if you center a campaign on business, what happens to people about for whom business is not the central fact of their lives? sort of like middle class people, ordinary people who want to work 9:00 to 5:00, whose lives are centered not on what they do but their families, churches communities, and saying to them what i'm going to do is unleash the dynamic powers of american capitalism doesn't speak to the specific -- >> that's great. >> it turns out, john, we are not a nation of shop keepers. most of us are lucky to get jobs we love like i do and you guys. we never started a business in our lives. there's a lot of people we look up to in this world. you know, fdr, ike, jack kennedy, never started a business, general petraeus never started a business. a lot of people that are lucky to find positions they fit into and they serve somebody and get paid for it. john, this idea that i'm a

rugged capitalist, i'm reading ayn rand, fountainhead, now i'm going to get 51% of the vote. it turns out that not that many people that are rand fans it turns out. >> if you're going to have a vibrant economy you need entrepreneurial energy and innovation and all that stuff, but you also need not just entrepreneurs but you need workers. >> voters. >> the vast majority of those people are not going to be people who start businesses in their garage. they're not going to start apple, not going to start bain. they're going to go out and work for people who start things. if you can't talk to those people and have a vision that encompasses both, the northwesterlial animal spirits that make our xhe work and the people who are actually out there just putting in their time and working hard for -- and playing by the rules as bill clinton liked to say, if you can't speak to both of those, you're not going to be able to be a winner or have a governing majority that is stable in this country. it's not possible. >> howard, the great swing voters, reagan democrats, more

conservative, many catholics, but just middle of the road people, i'm not sure they're all capitalists and tie coopycoonst. they're general pie peoplely people that go to work and come off the shift. >> there's two levels. one is that not everybody cares about entrepreneurialism and the abstract theories of joseph, et cetera. and the other part of it is cultural. people want to be left alone to live their lives in relative security with values that they appreciate. and mitt romney, who thought the whole campaign was just about the unemployment rate even failed at that because he didn't connect up the entrepreneurial spirit with how it might help the lives of those work a day people. that's something ron 23458d nald reagan and jack kemp at least figured out how to sell a

generation ago. >> i guess i was one of the takers because i went to school on student loans backed by the government. howard fineman, sir, thank you. i think we all went to school on loans. howard, john heilemann, have a nice thanksgiving. also, so much was made of the fact that president obama got only 39% of the white vote in this country. national problem for the president? not really when you realize in the deep south, mississippi, he got 10%. a lot of his problem and there's nothing wrong with talking about it is in the south. it's just the historic problem the democratic party white or black candidates have this problem. they're just having a tough time. the battle for hillary's job is getting hot. it's the first big decision president obama has to make. it looltion it's between john kerry and u.n. ambassador susan rice. will the president go with the 2004 presidential candidate or his apparent favorite? also a report on the latest in the fighting that i think could lead to a war with iran. talk about the gop's woman problem. in story county, nevada,

republican businessman who employs lots of women got elected county commissioner. the things is the woman he em plous is is brothel, the mustang ramp. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ fishing rod casting line, marching band playing ]

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welcome back to "hardball." there's been a lot of focus on the share of the whot vote that president obama won in the election. obama got 39% of the white vote but it's where that vote came from that tells us so much more. first a look at obama's share of the white vote in southern states. here is where the exit polls we took show a dramatic skewing of the numbers in states like mississippi and alabama. look at the numbers. president obama won only 10% in mississippi, 15% in alabama. in north carolina, a state that's growing more national, he got 31% of the white vote. in florida and virginia, which are very national states, all much closer to national average, he got 37%. you see as you go into the deep south, the old cotton south, it gets more difficult to get the white vote. as you get to the states that are becoming more diverse and more like the united states as a whole, you see the problem is not as bad as it was. you look at the midwestern states. here he overperformed the national average. in ohio the president got 41%. in michigan, 44%.

minnesota and wisconsin he got 48%. iowa he got 51% of the majority in those states. those numbers show white support for the president is heavily influenced by region, particularly in the deep south. joy reid is managing editor of the grio and john fep hery is a republican strategist. i think there were some racial games played by people like donald trump and sununu but let me tell you, i'm not saying any voters are prejudiced but i think there's an attitude by federal government policy, resistance to the federal government in the deep south that goes across lines like being more supportive of tough defense, very much against bureaucracy. somewhat still populist but also resident in all fairness to the civil rights area. the deep south didn't like democrats long before obama came along. they particularly don't like him. >> i think that's absolutely true. you have seen the republican party increasingly become a southern party.

look, you hear when you look at people in the south, the rhetoric is about statism. it's tenth amendment stuff. it's all this idea of the federal government overreaching and there was a lot of sort of pro-confederate revisionism you heard coming out of even the tea party movement and i think the tea party was also mainly a southern movement. so you definitely had a resistance not just to this president but democrats in general and then you layer on and i think you add the issue of race and, you know, like it or not, i think that had to be a part of it, too. but for certain barack obama's white working class firewall was in these more unionized states in the midwest. that's where he had a base. >> i think unions are a good force against that prejudice because they encourage you to vote by your economic interests not your tribe, if you will. john feehery, i'm looking at this history. if you look back, jimmy carter, for example, look at this, the '64 election, let's start with this. it's a great historic lesson tonight. in the '64 election with lyndon johnson, the last time the democrats got half the white

vote, since then jimmy carter also a man of the south, he got 48% of the white. since then democrats have ranged from a a low of 34% with mondale in 84% to a high of 44% with clinton in '96. barack obama got 43%. the second highest number since carter. this year he got 39% of the white vote, only slightly below the 40.6% share for democrats over the years. the democrats are running 2 out of 5 white votes. obama is very close to that with a particular skewing against him in the deep south. what do you make of it? >> well, i would just disagree with this idea that the gop is a regional party. if you look at all of those states, iowa, wisconsin, ohio, michigan, and pennsylvania, they were all -- had republican governors. mitt romney is from massachusetts. he did well in the south, which is no surprise as you pointed out. republicans have done well in the south since '64. his problem in the midwest and

upper midwest is he was kind of a lousy candidate. he didn't do what he had to do. he didn't connect with working class voters and that's a real problem, but republicans have connected with working class voters and they did two years ago and i think they will continue to do that in the elections to come. >> why did that take -- let me go to something in the rhetoric. you can read it both your own ways. romney kept saying -- we have a little montage. we're going to take back america, take back america. i have to live with the fact that the dallas cloowboys are america's team. i don't know how they got the name but they got it. how did he get to be the american candidate? who named him that? >> that's a frequent thing in politics. >> i never heard obama say take back america. >> you know, this is not that unfamiliar. the idea we're going to take back the white house, restore america, renew america, hope and change, whatever you want to call it. the team that's out of politics, out of power wants to take back power. i don't think that's racially motivated. i think it's ridiculous to think it is. >> but you know what, john?

look at the tea party's rhetoric. that's where this take back america stuff started. these were people looking at the colonial period as the idyllic period in the american history before you had unions and racial integration. that sort of america in which african-americans were three-fifths of a person. that was the era they saw as idyllic. to your point about 2010, let's not compare apples to oranges. what's in midterms is minority voters and younger voters stay home. sure, you can win a pennsylvania or an ohio or a michigan in an off-year election when basically white voters are the ones coming to the polls. when you add the ethnic dimension and younger voters, it becomes harder for republicans -- >> i this i that's rid includes. >> let's get away from the ethnic for a second. talk about this john feehery. i just watched "lincoln" last night. tommy lee jones steals the movie. it's an amazing part. and daniel day-lewis is

fabulous. anyway, you talk about the tenth amendment in the south, why is the tenth amendment which reserv reserves powers to the states so much an issue with republicans? why do they love that tenth amendment so much? is sounds like the civil war to me. your thoughts. >> my thought is i would prefer to talk about things not constitutional arguments but the tenth amendment movement is about the federal government is screwing up and we want to have -- spend less of our money and spend more of our money back home. there is a tenth amendment saying that what is not reserved -- not defined in the constitution is reserved to the states and the states should take care of it. the idea that the government locally can do the best job for the american people. that's a constitutional argument. i think it can be a good argument but i don't think it necessarily -- those type of constitutional arguments work with voters, especially in the vast middle where they want you to solve practical problems. >> i think the tenth amendment could be used. i look at the way the states are running their election laws.

every time they rewrite them it's to screw the minorities or the democrats. they're not particularly competent in the way they do these things. your thought, joy. every time i hear the tenth amendment i hear civil war because it says we don't trust washington, we're going to do it at the state level. that seems to be a southern thing more than northern. >> and u6 that bastion of southern states and governor that is want to run medicaid however they want to do it but in a lot of cases that means spending less money on their poor. these tend to be poorer states ou ronically enough. there's a competency issue in how they're running public education which tends to be poorer in mississippi than in massachusetts or new york. and issues when it comes to medicaid and the way those states are running. they have disproportionately more poor. it's very interesting that the states that want more power devolving to them are the states that tend to need more help from the federal government and, in fact, they get more help from the federal government than taxes they put in. i think the union dimension is important. if you look at the states that have something like 14% and above union membership, barack

obama did very well in them and democrats did very well in them. look at the sort attempts to push back the union movement. it has definite consequences for democrats' ability to win election on the ground. they have the money the ground troops and the loyalty of working class white voters. >> let's talk about the future now, future elections for president. john, you will be doing this for years ahead. let's talk about the fights. the share of the electorate made up by white voters has been more republican, has been in steady decline. in 1992, it was 87% of the electorate. dropped three points each year. now it's down to 72%. how does the republican party rebuild itself so they get 51%? imagine trying to get 51% of the whole out of that 72%. wuld have to get 5/7 of the vote if you only relied on white voters. it's not that bad but it's close. >> obviously long term the republicans can't just rely on the white vote. they can't afford to lose 80/20

with african-americans and hispanic voters and asian americans, that's just not doable. i think the conservative philosophy is not the problem. we have a cultural issue. the republican party has to be more inviting to all ethnic groups. they haven't been particularly inviting. you have people on the right, the shock jocks, the talk radio guys who have the racial code words which are outrageous. as a party culturally we have to be much more inviting and make sure we communicate and then have policy that is work for all americans as every republican has been saying since the election. passing immigration reform is not necessarily going to solve the problem, but it's a one step in the right way. >> your party has had success there before. the guy is named abraham lincoln and as recently as knell sorn rockefeller did very well with african-americans and george w. bush did extremely well with hispanics. it has to do with personality,

too. >> i think that's right. i think mitt romney just did not connect with a lot of folks. he didn't connect with a lot of white working close voters either and that was a real problem. >> but john it's tone -- >> we got to go. i'm sorry, joy. joy, you're fabulous, we have to go. you will be back soon. up next, new jersey gadhafi chris christie is getting a lot of mileage out of that fleece sweatshirt he's always wearing. i am not into this but i will find a way into it. people were making fun of it, and this is "hardball," the place for politics. joy, you're fabulous, we have to place for politics. into their work,

their name on the door, and their heart into their community. small business saturday is a day to show our support. a day to shop at stores owned by our friends and neighbors. joy, you're fabulous, we have to place for politics. and do our part for the businesses that do so much for us. on november 24th, let's get out and shop small.

back that "hardball." now to the "sideshow." first up chris christie goes on "snl." the new jersey governor made an appearance on weekend update to comment on storm recovery as well as that governor christie fleece jacket he seems to like wearing. >> how is cleanup going? >> so far so good, seth, but this isn't a job that's going to be done in a couple days.

fortunately, new jerseyans are known for their patience. >> they are? >> yes, they are. >> oh. >> how many times do i have to say it to you? >> you only said it once. i feel like we're getting off on the wrong foot. >> not at all seth. trust me, this is a totally normal foot for me to get off on with people. i was worried i was going to come out here and get angry with you, but this is nice. >> well, good. i also think this is nice. >> oh, my god, what is this a first date. >> i'm sorry. you have been wearing that fleece a lot. . >> it's basically fused to my skin at this point. >> i have seen you wearing suits. >> i wear them over the flus. i'm going to die in this fleece. but that's okay. it's a good fleece. >> it is a good fleece. >> stop saying things i've already said. >> all right, okay. >> more for the late night scene. i was on "the tonight show" on friday to do some post-election analysis. i talked to jay leno about my personal highlight of every election night. it night price you. my favorite part is the concession speeches.

i just love it when they come out because the newscaster can make a statement, everybody has their opinion, but when the loser comes out and just walks out -- i love -- i think it was the best thing he ever did in his life, romney. >> i thought -- >> walked out to -- out to the lip of the stage all by himself, not with his wife or kids, all by himself and he said i was just on the phone with the president. i congratulated him i'm going to pray for him. i had the best running mate i could have, the best team around me. no complaints, no dodging the ball. it's like sinatra said, class. just class. if only romney had stopped there instead of spoiling that classy moment by talking about gifts. next on the service it sounds like a nonstory, successful nevada businessman, a job creator, a guy who employs dozens of people gets elected county xhish per. republican lance gilman the newly elected county commissioner of nevada's storey county happens to be the owner of mustang ranch. that's right, the infamous

brothel out there. nevada, just to clear things up, is the only state with legalized prostitution and gilman just game the first such owner to make his way to winning an election of public office. according to the county xhish ler elect himself, people want to focus on the brothel issue. i have had a wonderful 43 year record of business success that i bring to the commission. it is kind of a hard issue to ignore. gilman by the way calls himself a dyed in the wool republican who loves american values. finally, last week steve schmidt said on meet the press that a lot of swing voters think of the republican party as one of loons and wackos. mike murphy, another republican strategist just weighed in on "meet the press." here he is. >> this is an existential crisis for the republican party and we have to have a brutal discussion about it. we alienate young voters because of gay marriage, we alienate hispanics and we've lost our connection to middle class

economics. we have an operative class which isn't competent. we have to get a party view of america that's not out of rush limbaugh's dream journal. >> well said. up until election night these experts were predicted a romney victory. they should go down with the ship. the titanic in fact instead of putting on dresses so they can get in the life boats. how did that sound? up next, replacing hillary clinton. president obama's choice may come down to john kerry or susan rice. will the president go with the 2004 democratic presidential candidate or his apparent favorite? this is "hardball," the place for politics. when you take a closer look... ...at the best schools in the world... ...you see they all have something very interesting in common. they have teachers... ...with a deeper knowledge of their subjects. as a result, their students achieve at a higher level. let's develop more stars in education. let's invest in our teachers...

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i'm amanda drury with your cnbc market wrap. the dow gains 207 points today, the s&p up bye-bye 27 an d the nasdaq rising 62.

apple jumped 38 bucks but it's still off 28% from the late september high. cisco up nearly 2% after saying its buying a terroristly held clout networking firm for $1.2 billion. as for the economy, existing home sales wrorose 1.2%. that's it for cnbc, first in business worldwide. now it's back over to "hardball." we're back. according to some reports the president could name a successor to hillary clinton as early as next week. i think it could come this week. it's a decision fraught with risk. "the new york times" reported yesterday that the white house aides say the president's favored candidate is susan rice, the current ambassador to the u.n. but republicans like senator john mccain and lindsey graham have threatened to filibuster her nomination thanks to her appearances on tv following the

benghazi attacks. would the president risk starting off his second term with a decision that would likely lead to a bitter confrontation fight? richard wolffe is vice president and executive editor of machines.com. he's also an msnbc political analyst. and jay newton-small is a diplomatic correspondent for "time." richard, i want to get your sense of the president's thinking here. now, i think the most successful thing he ever did in terms of policy or personnel was naming hillary clinton, the senator from new york and former first lady, to be his secretary of state because he established a second principal out there besides himself in foreign policy. he could let her leaded way as his partner, a minister, a foreign minister. not a staffer, she had other own stature apart from him. that's my preference. you need that creative tension and second terms die when the president gets too comfortable with the people around him

because he's promoted them from within. i look at all the recent presidents that have screwed up that way. you know my prejudice and i hope it doesn't get in the way of my feelings towards these candidates. what do you think is going on in the president's head right now based upon the influences of mrs. clinton, valerie jarrett, and other people in the white house? >> susan rice has been a preferred candidate for a long time and susan rice has -- i take where your question is going, but she's had a foot in both worlds as a trusted member of that inner circle who was there very early on in terms of the obama campaign, but she's also proved herself on this world stage which is what the u.n. job really is. when you think about the sanctions against iran, she's been pushing ahead with that. when you think about the air war in terms of the support for the rebels in libya, which apparently people like john mccain do say they care about, she was instrumental in that. and then even the harder piece of diplomacy, bridging the gap between the obama world and the clinton world because she has worked very well with hillary clinton. susan rice has the whole package

there. to kind of suggest she's a staff person really doesn't get to her credentials. >> i think she did one other thing besides that, that very finesseful way in which she handled the push by the palestinians for statehood. >> good point. >> somehow she pushed back very successfully on that. so what's your sense though? you're a political reader like i am, rimpd. who is he going to pick if you had to bet right now? >> i think it's susan rice. there is the question about john kerry, but i think now that john mccain has sunk his teeth in, he's made it about presidential authority, and, frankly, it's outrageous that there is this witch hunt going on on the right about these people of color, let's face it, around this president. eric holder, valerie jarrett, now susan rice. before it was van jones. this is not about who is hawkish in the same way john mccain is about foreign policy because if you look at iran and libya, susan rice checks those boxes. this is a personal vendetta -- >> so you think mccain is being -- mccain and people like lindsey graham, mccain, who had his own daughter attacked, was

accused of having an illegitimate child when he adopted a young girl from south asia, you're saying that mccain's being driven by racial prejudice here? >> there is no other way to look at this because look at her foreign policy and by the way, look at what john mccain said about condi rice's nomination. we're running this story on the front page of the msnbc website right now. back then four years -- eight years ago, john mccain said the people -- the elements who were questioning condi rice's credentials they were engaged with bitter innocence, they needed to move on. why has he changed his tune? what is it about susan rice? and the answer is there aren't any good foreign policy explanations for it. >> let me go to jay on this question. jay, what do you read as the issues here for the president? and his personal decision? it's a huge decision he has to make in the space of a week now it looks like. >> it is a huge decision. whomever he nominates will be number four in line for the oval office in case anything happens to the president or the vice president or the speaker.

you want somebody with gravitas, somebody who is tested and who, you know, can -- you feel comfortable with in trusting not only the nation but your foreign policy but potentially the nation as well. so in that sense hillary clinton certainly fit the bill for the job and they're hoping that susan rice would fit the bill for the job. keep in mind these five interviews she did on the morning shows were essentially a tryout for her. she was trying to prove herself to the president, and in that sense as you were saying earlier, she sort of stuck to the talking points. and i know it's unfair to get pilloried tor sticking to the talking point but do you want someone who will think for themselves or do you want someone -- she was trying to show they would be a good soldier and do what you wanted her to do and she did that and that got her into a lot of trouble. if she thought perhaps a little more independently, questioned the talking points, read the intelligence herself, she might have answered these questions differently or spoken differently on the shows. >> richard, you disagree. you say she would be an

autonomous member of the cabinet, she would be a separate principal with her own stature, would not be someone who would do something that tom donnelly would send over the notes and she would do it. you don't see her as that kind of appendage. >> let's look at benghazi itself, okay? if she were someone who just followed everyone else's orders, she would not have been one of the leading voices along with hillary clinton to support the rebels in benghazi and protect the civilians there. john mccain knows that full well. senator mccain knows full well there was cia engagement not just with these talking points but with the actual operation around the ambassador in benghazi. everyone knows what the real story is behind here in terms of the operation, in terms of susan rice's independence, and if you want to take a sunday show talking points performance as the measure of a secretary of state, you're on very thin ground in terms of how anyone for any position could get nominated in the future. >> let me follow this thinking here. who is going to take the bullet

for what looked to be the failure to protect chris stevens? who is going to take the bullet for what looks to be a misrepresentation in real time as to what happened? who is going to pay the price? >> certainly -- >> first of all, jay go first. >> i think certainly republicans want it to be susan rice. they're essentially calling for her scalp. and you had white house press secretary jay carney out there at the same time going even farther than rice was and talking about how this was all just due to a protest and not really -- not having much to do with terrorism, and they're not calling for his scalp because he is essentially a spin doctor and it's not the scalp they want. they want somebody in policy and somebody who will draw blood from the obama administration and that is susan rice. >> that sounds like richard. thank you, richard wolffe, thank you jay newton-small. up next, how close is the middle east to an all-out regional war? is israel headed to a war with iran? i see a possible precursor to a war with iran. the latest on the fight between

israel and hamas coming up next. this is interesting and scary. the place for politics. we'll be right back. ford c-max. when you're carrying a lot of weight, c-max has a nice little trait, you see, c-max helps you load your freight, with its foot-activated lift gate. but that's not all you'll see, cause c-max also beats prius v, with better mpg. say hi to the all-new 47 combined mpg c-max hybrid. we'll be right back. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso.

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only from the postal service. welcome back to hard-ball. for the sixth straight day, israel pounded targets in the gaza strip. palestinians say the death toll has reached 100, including 53 civilians. palestinians responded with a barrage of more than 1,000 missiles into israel. they're trying to negotiate a peace deal between the two sides

to avoid a ground invasion of gaza. why is this happening now? does it have anything to do with the potential strike on iran and its nuclear sites? richard engel is nbc news chief foreign correspondent and joins us from gaza. richard, listen to this conversation which happened yesterday. it was "washington post" columnist david ignatius, very good in the intel community, and also talking to blogger tom ricks about whether or not a potential strike on iran has anything to do with the fighting going on right now. >> some people think that what this is about is in preparation for a likely war with iran, israel testing the rockets that would be fired against it from gaza, next from lebanon so, we may see something with lebanon soon because it's a preliminary, kind of a warm-up round for the real conflagration ahead that involves iran. >> you really think there's a chance that israel would strike iran and try to take out those nuclear -- >> yes, especially given the timing of the gaza thing.

if they waited until after the american elections are over and now they're getting down to business. >> i guess that's the question that call for some speculation, but is it possible that netanyahu and his cabinet and the knesset have decided the best way to deal with iran is to get involved in a hot war and then -- obviously iran's arming the enemy, arming hamas, and going for the source of the problem and bombing them as part of a hot war situation? >> reporter: it does obviously require some speculation, but it also requires some analysis, and i think it makes a lot of sense. if you look at this, israel really picked the timing. israel could have gone into a war with hamas almost at any time and found its rocket launches as a pretext. but it chose to do it now. israel has been testing its iron dome defense systems, which would certainly come into play if there was a war with iran. it's been testing the new middle east, testing egypt's stance, forging new relations with rob

morrison -- mohamed morsi, seeing how the arab world is post the arab spring. testing hezbollah and testing president obama, who interestingly immediately threw his lot in with israel. the president didn't say we want to call for cessation of hostilities and calm, he said we agree with israel's right to defend itself. israel's real enemy is iran. if remember netanyahu was at the u.n. holding up his bomb chart. he wasn't talking about hamas. he was talking about iran. that is israel's overriding threat. they have been able to deal with hamas pretty handedly. i've seen just yesterday israeli warships able to take out a single hamas militant who was sitting in a chair by the waterfront. so one warship fired a rocket. you could barely see the ship on the horizon and take out an individual militant. israel has been telephoning the houses of neighbors of hamas militants and telling them to

get out of their houses. it has their phone numbers. so there is something suspicious about this. israel has too much intelligence on hamas, has been able to deal with hamas too confidently, and you have to wonder is there really a different objective. >> could it be better for israel. you speak positive about doing this, to get rid of the missile sites in hamas, in the gaza before they attack iran, therefore they can't be used for retaliation. >> that's certainly -- that's an extra bonus. you get to defend your own cities. you figure out how well the iron dome system works, which has been an untested system, which has actually proven to be remarkably effective, the most of its kind in the world. you set back hamas' capabilities. you test your own intelligence. and you also test the arab world. i think that was the great unknown here. >> yes. >> how would egypt react, how would the sinai react. and so far there has been a degree of calm and morsi, although he's been sympathetic to hamas, something the israelis

knew he would be, has not proven to be an irrational actor. >> it would be good for israel to catch iran in the act of arming its enemies. therefore, they would be reacting to an aggressive action by the iranians, not initiating an act of war. makes sense to me. thank you. nbc's richard engel in gaza. we'll be right back. got your campbell's chunky soup. mom? who's mom? i'm the giants mascot. the giants don't have a mascot! ohhh! eat up! new jammin jerk chicken soup has tasty pieces of chicken with rice and beans. hmmm. for giant hunger! thanks mom! see ya! whoaa...oops! mom? i'm ok. grandma? hi sweetie! she operates the head. [ male announcer ] campbell's chunky soup. it fills you up right.

i spent sunday watching the philadelphia marathon. first of all, talk act getting engaged. 28,000 people ran the race to the old city passed boathouse row and kelly drive. they range from winner who runs 13 miles an hour to the gutsy amateurs who simply manage to run for 26.2 miles. but just as impressive were the people along the sidelines cheering them on, cheering on complete strangers, yelling out their names. you could read the names on their bibs, cheering because they want to help them keep on running. there were bands along the route, all kinds of people. the runners would yell out, thanking people for just showing up to encourage them. it's another view of my city. we're known, of course, for being tough fans when it comes to professional sports. i could tell you stories. one notorious even threw snowballs at santa claus. but the people of philly and those who came from around the country yesterday were doing something magnificent. i'll admit it, i was thrilled by